Smith’s later rows back on comments, condemned by Corbyn as ‘hasty and ill-considered’
We’re winding down the blog now but here’s a summary of this morning’s events:
You can read a Guardian panel’s verdict on this morning’s hustings here.
David Wearing writes:
The mere 35 minutes devoted to policy rendered what discussion there was largely superficial. There was one fascinating moment when Smith appeared to advocate talking to Isis, which Corbyn sensibly had ruled out, but the significance of this was missed, and the debate moved on. By the end BBC viewers could have been forgiven for wondering why the press and leading Labour figures have spent so much of the past week talking about Trotskyism.
More clarification from Owen Smith’s team on those Islamic State remarks (via Jessica Elgot).
Owen is clear that there should be absolutely no negotiation with Daesh, or any terrorist group, until they renounce violence, cease all acts of terror and commit themselves to a peaceful settlement.
Owen’s experience of helping to bring about peace in Northern Ireland is that eventually all parties who truly believe in delivering peace have to be around the table. In the Middle East at the moment that clearly doesn’t include - and may never include - Daesh.
As Labour infighting continues, the latest Ipsos Mori poll has the Tories with their biggest lead over Labour since 2009, 45% to 34%, with the Lib Dems on 7% and Ukip on 6%.
Theresa May has a net satisfaction rating of +35 after her first month as prime minister with 54% satisfied with her performance.
May moves to net 68% @IpsosMORI ratings over Corbyn pic.twitter.com/7HE8yLKPTD
Corbyn’s team have seized on Smith’s comments on Islamic State during this morning’s debate, describing them as “hasty and ill-considered”.
Jeremy Corbyn's team go on the attack and suggest Owen Smith is being soft on terrorism. pic.twitter.com/2ASbN0dRqN
Owen Smith has rowed back on his comments about negotiating with Islamic State.
In a Facebook Q&A, a member of the public asked:
I agree with you that they’re not interested in peace talks - and that means there can’t be any. There can be absolutely no negotiation with any terrorist group until they renounce violence, cease all acts of terror and commit themselves to a peaceful settlement. My experience of working on the peace process in Northern Ireland, though, is that eventually all parties who truly believe in delivering peace have to be around the table. In the Middle East at the moment that clearly doesn’t include - and may never include - Isis.
A Q&A with Owen Smith on Facebook is starting now.
The second question posted, predictably, is
Owen - could you clarify your statements on Islamic State? A few Smith supporters, me included, are worried about exactly what you meant.
In terms of negotiations with ISIS, if you were Prime Minister would you visit Raqqa to negotiate or invite ISIS leaders to Downing Street to discuss peace talks there?
How can you possibly claim to be more electorally popular than Jeremy when you want to sit down at the negotiating table with Jihadi John and ISIS fanatics?
One major bone of contention between the two was international diplomacy around the crisis in Syria. Corbyn said negotiations should involve the Assad government and others in “proximity talks”. He said Islamic State “shouldn’t be round the table, no”.
It’s been a lively debate but I think this – as close as Corbyn gets to an angry voice – is one of the best bits.
Jeremy Corbyn telling Owen Smith to be quiet is my new jam #VictoriaLIVEhttps://t.co/GCLCo4PnRw
The debate is over now and large swaths of the undecided section of the audience have moved over to support Jeremy Corbyn.
One said it was Corbyn’s commitment to community activism that persuaded him and another by his arguments on child mental health which he stated at the end of the programme.
Smith’s comments on Islamic State are creating a bit of a stir on social media. Here’s what he said in full:
My view is that ultimately all solutions to these crises do come about through dialogue.
So eventually if we are to try and solve this, all of the actors do need to be involved. At the moment, Isil are clearly not interested in negotiating.
Owen Smith is channelling Jonathan Powell on the inevitability of negotiations. But every now and again someone is unroundthetableable.
Appalling answer from Owen Smith too. Praises dialogue, then says "all the actors have to be involved". Actually wants Isis round the table.
Smith says that he would abolish student tuition fees and introduce a graduate tax.
Corbyn says he does not believe in a graduate tax because it is still a charge on students. He says he will pay for more public funding of universities through higher corporation tax.
Smith says Brexit is “a desperate mistake for our country” and says the crucial question is now about the future. “The question for Jeremy and for me in the event that Liam Fox and David Davis sell down the river our protections...”
Corbyn says there are red lines on market access, environmental protections, workers’ rights which he will challenge. “Are we to become a bargain basement, deeply unequal island off the coast of Europe?
One questioner asks if Corbyn takes responsibility for losing the Brexit vote, and why has he not resigned?
Corbyn says two-thirds of Labour supporters voted to remain. “The message is that votes were very different in parts of the country,” he said. He is asked again if he takes responsibility. Huge shouts in the audience about this. Another audience member says David Cameron came across far more passionately than Corbyn.
Both are now being asked if they would push that theoretical button to use nuclear weapons and their position on Trident.
Smith says he is not a unilateralist. “I used to hold that view, I don’t any longer. I think we should negotiate our way to get rid of nuclear weapons. “The country wants the Labour party to be serious about the security of our country.”
Owen Smith seems to suggest ISIS could be "round the table" for Syrian peace talks - Corbyn rejects. Imagine media if other way round?
Incredible moment. Owen Smith says we need to get ISIS "round the table", Corbyn takes tougher stance: https://t.co/7qqP5kkGQX
Corbyn cites his policies of the national investment bank and transport policies which he said would help grow the economy, as well as tax rises. He is asked what growth would be needed for his investment. “It’s hard to predict,” he says.
“Infrastructure projects generate growth, childcare generates growth,” he says. “We have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic success we need.”
Owen Smith is asked about being a “backstabber” in resigning and challenging Corbyn.
Smith said he would feel he was letting his constituency down unless he did. “We have got to be in power, and the principal reason I resigned is I do not believe that we can win power under Jeremy. Otherwise I am wasting my time as an MP.”
It’s quiz time! Quickfire questions to the candidates …
Owen Smith can however name Swifty&Bieber. But fails on Wales scores in Euros. Lads it out by saying he was in the pub so memory hazy.
There’s another hour of debate to go, and you can now listen to the debate on BBC 5Live. Here’s the verdict at the halfway point from the Twitter commentariat.
From author Matt Haig:
If the Labour Party was a person right now it'd be prescribed a lot of lithium and long walks in open spaces and yogic breathing.
Owen Smith doesn't think there's a divide between the PLP and the Labour Party membership. Incredible. #VictoriaLIVE
"Abuse has no place in any political party" has to be one of the most meaningless tropes of our time #VictoriaLIVE
So far the drama on #VictoriaLIVE is coming from the audience rather than @jeremycorbyn and @owensmith2016
Nearly an hour in and this hustings hasn't yet finished talking about Labour's internal misery to move on to discuss policy.
This from the #VictoriaLIVE Hustings VT looks like Corbyn is the main character in a metropolitan sitcom pic.twitter.com/qhVkWQqF25
Corbyn says the party must come together to take the fight to the Tories. “On health, on education, we can do that.”
Smith says there is not too much difference between him and Jeremy. He names Europe as one difference. But he says the poll performance shows an election would decimate the Labour party.
One audience member says Labour MPs are only trying to further their own careers. “They should remember they are there to represent us, ordinary Labour members,” he said.
Smith says he represents the Labour manifesto, but he also represents his entire constituency in Pontypridd, not just Labour members. It’s a point anti-Corbyn MPs often make.
MPs are elected by the electorate, constituents. Next #VictoriaLIVE
Corbyn said he did not offer Shami Chakrabarti a peerage before her independent review into antisemitism. He offered it to her after Cameron resigned, he said, because he understood that would mean that Labour would get one House of Lords nomination. She accepted it then, he said.
He defends her appointment to the House of Lords. “She is a person of intellectual rigour and strength. She proposed a series of rule changes and education, which was well received by the national executive.”
One woman in the audience says she has been a member for three years. The debate in the party is so toxic, she says, she would feel “safer going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter”.
She said her attendance at a Young Labour conference had been fraught with angry debates, with one person walking out in tears.
One audience member points to the case of Thangam Debbonaire, the MP who says she was mistakenly given a job which was then taken away while she had cancer treatment, as well as social media abuse of MPs.
Corbyn says that abuse will be dealt with by the party, and new rules will soon be in place to tackle it.
Smith says that as leader, he will stress there is “more that unites us than divides us”. He says that there is not such a great chasm – but there is laughter in the audience at that remark. Smith says this is about leadership qualities, first and foremost.
Corbyn says that he was elected leader of the party and appointed a shadow cabinet with a broad church of opinions. He says he would do the same again and remind Labour MPs of their responsibilities to work together on education, health and austerity.
We have some common ground between the two candidates – both are allotment lovers.
Smith says he gave his up last year when his wife started back at work as a schoolteacher. “I’m just as fond as Jeremy of growing beans.”
Owen Smith looks frozen in fear as Jeremy Corbyn suggests they could share an allotment.
Allotment lovers, how will you choose? They BOTH have one #VictoriaLIVE#DiggingForBritain
Peter Gates, who said he works at the University of Nottingham, says he is supporting Corbyn because he is “a throughly decent bloke who doesn’t deserve to be treated in the way he has been treated”.
Steve, a solicitor who says he is a longstanding member, says he is voting for Smith. “Labour exists to get things done. If we don’t win power, we won’t get things done. We are in danger of becoming a narrow church.”
Corbyn says that he is confident after the support from local Labour parties and says he is touring the country going to both Labour supporting areas and safe Tory seats.
Smith says a lot of the constituency votes were “narrow” and says he is confident he will persuade people that Labour needs to “get ready for government” by changing the leader.
The audiences at the two hustings so far have appeared to be more pro-Corbyn.
This being the BBC, there’s been an effort to evenly split the 100-strong audience between Corbyn supporters, Smith supporters, undecided Labour members and floating voters.
As we prepare to hear from the two candidates, it’s been mixed news for both of them at the start of the week.
Good morning, we’re covering the third Labour leadership debate which is on the BBC’s Victoria Derbyshire show from 9am, from Nottingham.
Here’s the scene in the studio this morning where a studio audience are waiting for Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.
Awaiting these two gentlemen for our Labour leadership debate starting at 9am @BBCNews& online #VictoriaLIVEpic.twitter.com/0A98wJZtUA
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